One of my most frequently asked questions is how The Children’s Tradition differs from Ambleside Online. I suppose it is natural for anyone marketing a “Classical Charlotte Mason Curriculum'' to naturally beg the question of how much they were influenced by the OG Mason curriculum. I have tremendous respect for the AO Advisory and Auxiliary members and I am extremely grateful for the very good work they are doing in the world! Though we have different starting places and points of reference, there are naturally overlaps as we share a love of good, old books. Nevertheless, TCT and AO are two very distinct curricula, as I will explain, so let me dive in.
This is interesting and helpful for understanding the differences. It sounds to me, when I read what you've written here, like TCT is based primarily on John Senior's work and is only slightly influenced by Charlotte Mason. If I'm wrong please correct me! But if not, it does beg the question: why call it a Charlotte Mason curriculum at all?
(I'm asking out of sincere interest, not with a desire to challenge or to provoke 😊)
I don’t think you’re being provocative at all, and I appreciate this thoughtful question! Strictly speaking, TCT is a classical curriculum. It pulls upon the Great Tradition as a whole, from Plato and Aristotle, to St. Augustine and St. Aquinas, up to and including Charlotte Mason. John Senior faithfully articulated a historic pedagogy in line with classical ideas about gymnastic and musical education, as well as nurturing a Christian Paidea. And of course he gave us the 1,000 Good Books list! So his work, and that of his student, James Taylor, absolutely were paramount in writing this curriculum. That said, their writings on the elementary years in particular are limited. Additionally, they never mention something like narration. And then when it comes to my perspective as a writer, my study of classical education has largely been shaped by Charlotte Mason. Up until studying Senior and learning about poetic knowledge I would have said she was my greatest classical education influence. What I found in learning about poetic knowledge was in no way a contradiction of Mason, but seemed like a more clearly articulated classical pedagogy that I believe she also largely embraced! For example, Karen Glass talks about “synthetic knowledge” in Consider This as a place where the Great Tradition and Mason are in unity. This is one way to talk about poetic knowledge. So in writing TCT, I synthesized Senior with Mason, much like you synthesized Mason with Orthodox Church fathers in your book! Her work is woven throughout the curriculum, not just as a subtle footnote, but as a primary source. So it seemed necessary that I mention her, with her philosophy playing so largely into TCT’s articulation and practice. Finally, on a practical level, by calling it a classical Charlotte Mason curriculum, I think that communicates something to the imagination of homeschool moms. When they hear Mason, they think narration and nature study at a minimum, two things that are central in TCT. So I believe it was helpful to mention that in order to give parents a general, imaginative picture of what TCT contains. I hope that makes sense! And most of all I hope Mason educators will know that I am not trying to divide away from her/them but rather would like to present living ideas from the classical tradition that might help us clarify what Mason really meant in the first place.
I would love an answer to the question about where to go after this with older children. The other question I have is, how does The Children’s Tradition deal with combining students. I have kids very close together and this is always a question I am trying to figure out.
I just answered the question about older students below under Tania's question! As to your other question, TCT is extremely friendly to combining students. The books form natural cycles along the lines of Forms, so Years 1-3 can be easily looped as well as Years 4-5 (which will be 4-6 in the Spring launch). If you had an incoming 4th grader who hadn't read any (or some) of the Good Books, they could even be looped in with the Form 1 students for at least some of the books. Because these are, indeed, Good Books, they will nourish the souls of every person in the family, no matter how old, and we can foster a culture of reading aloud and delighting in great stories together.
My husband is at grad school doing a degree in Classical Leadership and is currently reading John Senior so I am very interested. I already bought Alveary and the books for this year so I may make the jump over next year. Is this a program to buy each year? Or for each student?
This program covers 1st-5th and will cover as many students as you have in your family. This is not an annual program membership like the Alveary, but a one-time purchase (two-time, if you buy the beta and Spring edition, but it will be no extra cost since the Spring edition will be $200 and the beta purchasers will receive $100 off). My goal was to give parents a holistic vision of elementary education and then save theirs funds for all these delightful books!
What would you recommend for children too old for TCT? My oldest two are 11 and turning 13 in Sept. so it sounds like they are already too old? What would you recommend for them and my younger children as they age out of TCT? For reference, we've used AO and CMEC for six years.
I will write an article about this. The short answer is use TCT to inform your philosophy, make book selections from the Adolescent portion of Senior's 1,000 Good Books list, and add in a composition curriculum. Personally I am drawn to following the Progymnasmata (the Scholé Sisters have a class on this) or using Lost Tools of Writing by the Circe Institute. How much you use TCT for your older students will also depend on their previous exposure to the Good Books. I am working on a list to share of which books from Nursery and School Years are "must-reads" for those who are on-boarding to TCT in older grades. So their first year might begin with reading books like the Greek myths, Grimm's Fairy Tales, Pinocchio, etc. to build up their literary foundation. Because they are older, they would read them at a much faster pace than younger students, so they could easily "make up" lost ground. Not that I want anyone to think of it as lost ground though. In a sense, no one is "behind" in this curriculum, we just go into it wherever we are and pick up the next book. It is very freeing from that perspective!
One more question, sorry! I was just comparing the sample of TCT with Senior's list, and I'm noticing books in TCT that aren't included on the 1000 books list, such as Stories from the Faerie Queen. Are the booklists found online incomplete? I don't own any of Seniors hard copy books to compare the discrepancy.
You're totally good, ask away! I did make a few additions, especially to bulk out the myths/legends portion which Senior recommended in principle but didn't have a lot of on the list. You can always check the Appendix to verify if a book is from his list or not. If it is mine, I put an asterisk by it (but I also don't think I got to add every single of my own picks to the Appendix when I was crunched for time).
Thank you! I am complete agreement with your take on history for the younger years. My children had no sense of chronological time at that age, in fact using AO, as much as I loved the books, set a great dislike for history in my oldest, which makes me hesitant to start AO with my current 6 yo. I've glanced at Seniors book list, and my oldest two have already read most of the books for younger children (with the exception of Henty), and even some on the adolescent list found here https://onlinegreatbooks.com/john-senior-and-the-thousand-good-books/
So we'd be all set to continue on. I do wonder about the coverage for history and science in the upper years? What I can see of Seniors list is solely literature books. Would you add in a few living history/science spines? (Sorry if you plan to address this in an upcoming post- I need to decide on our upcoming year soon so I can begin planning!).
I would check out Norms and Nobility by David Hicks. He has a classical curriculum for 7th-12th that I plan to pull from for things like history myself. As for science, Senior recommended nature study up through high school. This would involve researching the flora and fauna your students are encountering and notebooking. Additionally, finding living books to support that inquiry would be helpful in that process!
Thank you for this article Amanda. I used Ambleside for several years, later changing it around a few times and finally ending up with CMEC last year. My eldest daughter did very well with Ambleside, but it did not especially suit my younger daughter. When I converted to Catholicism I found many of the books unsuitable and have even had that issue to a much lesser extent with the CMEC, though I am not against using Protestant material as long as it is not anti-Catholic. I know that John Senior, himself Catholic, also recommended some Protestant books.
I purchased Children's Tradition last week, but have not had a good read yet as I am waiting for a printed copy to arrive. So far I am quite excited at the refreshing nature of it (no subjects, no history cycles!), as well as the combination of John Senior's work which has been time tested and has indeed been very fruitful.
I have received a number of emails from parents who share your concern about bias (both Catholic parents worried about anti-Catholic teaching and Protestants worried about anti-Protestant teaching). What has delighted me is to be able to share a curriculum that bypasses that concern by returning exclusively to books that have stood the test of time in our collective Western culture. Realism is at the heart of these books, giving us shared ground to stand upon as we come together to participate in the Great Conversation as it continues in our own time. While each family’s faith will inform it’s atmosphere and spiritual practices, and I provide some basic recommendations when they may delineate between traditions, the overwhelming part of this curriculum is for any family in a Nicene Christian tradition. Senior’s wisdom, insight, and humility as he received the western intellectual tradition is an example to us all of how to read widely without compromising our convictions. Thank you so much for purchasing TCT! I would love to hear about your experience as the school year goes on.
This is interesting and helpful for understanding the differences. It sounds to me, when I read what you've written here, like TCT is based primarily on John Senior's work and is only slightly influenced by Charlotte Mason. If I'm wrong please correct me! But if not, it does beg the question: why call it a Charlotte Mason curriculum at all?
(I'm asking out of sincere interest, not with a desire to challenge or to provoke 😊)
I don’t think you’re being provocative at all, and I appreciate this thoughtful question! Strictly speaking, TCT is a classical curriculum. It pulls upon the Great Tradition as a whole, from Plato and Aristotle, to St. Augustine and St. Aquinas, up to and including Charlotte Mason. John Senior faithfully articulated a historic pedagogy in line with classical ideas about gymnastic and musical education, as well as nurturing a Christian Paidea. And of course he gave us the 1,000 Good Books list! So his work, and that of his student, James Taylor, absolutely were paramount in writing this curriculum. That said, their writings on the elementary years in particular are limited. Additionally, they never mention something like narration. And then when it comes to my perspective as a writer, my study of classical education has largely been shaped by Charlotte Mason. Up until studying Senior and learning about poetic knowledge I would have said she was my greatest classical education influence. What I found in learning about poetic knowledge was in no way a contradiction of Mason, but seemed like a more clearly articulated classical pedagogy that I believe she also largely embraced! For example, Karen Glass talks about “synthetic knowledge” in Consider This as a place where the Great Tradition and Mason are in unity. This is one way to talk about poetic knowledge. So in writing TCT, I synthesized Senior with Mason, much like you synthesized Mason with Orthodox Church fathers in your book! Her work is woven throughout the curriculum, not just as a subtle footnote, but as a primary source. So it seemed necessary that I mention her, with her philosophy playing so largely into TCT’s articulation and practice. Finally, on a practical level, by calling it a classical Charlotte Mason curriculum, I think that communicates something to the imagination of homeschool moms. When they hear Mason, they think narration and nature study at a minimum, two things that are central in TCT. So I believe it was helpful to mention that in order to give parents a general, imaginative picture of what TCT contains. I hope that makes sense! And most of all I hope Mason educators will know that I am not trying to divide away from her/them but rather would like to present living ideas from the classical tradition that might help us clarify what Mason really meant in the first place.
Thank you for such a thorough response! Lots to chew on, which I always love :)
I would love an answer to the question about where to go after this with older children. The other question I have is, how does The Children’s Tradition deal with combining students. I have kids very close together and this is always a question I am trying to figure out.
I just answered the question about older students below under Tania's question! As to your other question, TCT is extremely friendly to combining students. The books form natural cycles along the lines of Forms, so Years 1-3 can be easily looped as well as Years 4-5 (which will be 4-6 in the Spring launch). If you had an incoming 4th grader who hadn't read any (or some) of the Good Books, they could even be looped in with the Form 1 students for at least some of the books. Because these are, indeed, Good Books, they will nourish the souls of every person in the family, no matter how old, and we can foster a culture of reading aloud and delighting in great stories together.
My husband is at grad school doing a degree in Classical Leadership and is currently reading John Senior so I am very interested. I already bought Alveary and the books for this year so I may make the jump over next year. Is this a program to buy each year? Or for each student?
This program covers 1st-5th and will cover as many students as you have in your family. This is not an annual program membership like the Alveary, but a one-time purchase (two-time, if you buy the beta and Spring edition, but it will be no extra cost since the Spring edition will be $200 and the beta purchasers will receive $100 off). My goal was to give parents a holistic vision of elementary education and then save theirs funds for all these delightful books!
I love this aspect of it as well! Thank you Amanda! I look forward to using this in the future!
I love that! Thank you Amanda!
What would you recommend for children too old for TCT? My oldest two are 11 and turning 13 in Sept. so it sounds like they are already too old? What would you recommend for them and my younger children as they age out of TCT? For reference, we've used AO and CMEC for six years.
I will write an article about this. The short answer is use TCT to inform your philosophy, make book selections from the Adolescent portion of Senior's 1,000 Good Books list, and add in a composition curriculum. Personally I am drawn to following the Progymnasmata (the Scholé Sisters have a class on this) or using Lost Tools of Writing by the Circe Institute. How much you use TCT for your older students will also depend on their previous exposure to the Good Books. I am working on a list to share of which books from Nursery and School Years are "must-reads" for those who are on-boarding to TCT in older grades. So their first year might begin with reading books like the Greek myths, Grimm's Fairy Tales, Pinocchio, etc. to build up their literary foundation. Because they are older, they would read them at a much faster pace than younger students, so they could easily "make up" lost ground. Not that I want anyone to think of it as lost ground though. In a sense, no one is "behind" in this curriculum, we just go into it wherever we are and pick up the next book. It is very freeing from that perspective!
One more question, sorry! I was just comparing the sample of TCT with Senior's list, and I'm noticing books in TCT that aren't included on the 1000 books list, such as Stories from the Faerie Queen. Are the booklists found online incomplete? I don't own any of Seniors hard copy books to compare the discrepancy.
You're totally good, ask away! I did make a few additions, especially to bulk out the myths/legends portion which Senior recommended in principle but didn't have a lot of on the list. You can always check the Appendix to verify if a book is from his list or not. If it is mine, I put an asterisk by it (but I also don't think I got to add every single of my own picks to the Appendix when I was crunched for time).
Ok, sounds good. We love myths and legends too!
Thank you! I am complete agreement with your take on history for the younger years. My children had no sense of chronological time at that age, in fact using AO, as much as I loved the books, set a great dislike for history in my oldest, which makes me hesitant to start AO with my current 6 yo. I've glanced at Seniors book list, and my oldest two have already read most of the books for younger children (with the exception of Henty), and even some on the adolescent list found here https://onlinegreatbooks.com/john-senior-and-the-thousand-good-books/
So we'd be all set to continue on. I do wonder about the coverage for history and science in the upper years? What I can see of Seniors list is solely literature books. Would you add in a few living history/science spines? (Sorry if you plan to address this in an upcoming post- I need to decide on our upcoming year soon so I can begin planning!).
I would check out Norms and Nobility by David Hicks. He has a classical curriculum for 7th-12th that I plan to pull from for things like history myself. As for science, Senior recommended nature study up through high school. This would involve researching the flora and fauna your students are encountering and notebooking. Additionally, finding living books to support that inquiry would be helpful in that process!
Thank you for this article Amanda. I used Ambleside for several years, later changing it around a few times and finally ending up with CMEC last year. My eldest daughter did very well with Ambleside, but it did not especially suit my younger daughter. When I converted to Catholicism I found many of the books unsuitable and have even had that issue to a much lesser extent with the CMEC, though I am not against using Protestant material as long as it is not anti-Catholic. I know that John Senior, himself Catholic, also recommended some Protestant books.
I purchased Children's Tradition last week, but have not had a good read yet as I am waiting for a printed copy to arrive. So far I am quite excited at the refreshing nature of it (no subjects, no history cycles!), as well as the combination of John Senior's work which has been time tested and has indeed been very fruitful.
I have received a number of emails from parents who share your concern about bias (both Catholic parents worried about anti-Catholic teaching and Protestants worried about anti-Protestant teaching). What has delighted me is to be able to share a curriculum that bypasses that concern by returning exclusively to books that have stood the test of time in our collective Western culture. Realism is at the heart of these books, giving us shared ground to stand upon as we come together to participate in the Great Conversation as it continues in our own time. While each family’s faith will inform it’s atmosphere and spiritual practices, and I provide some basic recommendations when they may delineate between traditions, the overwhelming part of this curriculum is for any family in a Nicene Christian tradition. Senior’s wisdom, insight, and humility as he received the western intellectual tradition is an example to us all of how to read widely without compromising our convictions. Thank you so much for purchasing TCT! I would love to hear about your experience as the school year goes on.