One of my most frequently asked questions is how The Children’s Tradition differs from Ambleside Online. I suppose it is natural for anyone marketing a “Classical Charlotte Mason Curriculum'' to naturally beg the question of how much they were influenced by the OG Mason curriculum. I have tremendous respect for the AO Advisory and Auxiliary members and I am extremely grateful for the very good work they are doing in the world! Though we have different starting places and points of reference, there are naturally overlaps as we share a love of good, old books. Nevertheless, TCT and AO are two very distinct curricula, as I will explain, so let me dive in.
Just as I would not feel comfortable teaching my children from the good and the beautiful written by a Mormon. I would feel the same knowing that the background of this Philosophy is Catholic. The CMEC also leans Catholic. Why are Protestants not upset about this. The reformation is not over! I think I’ll stick with AO which point my children to the gospel and not a false gospel of works.
Hi Kerry, I appreciate your concern to deliver faithful doctrine to your children, but I can assure you there is not a hint of a false gospel in The Children's Tradition or any of the sources I used in writing it. The philosophy is historic Christianity handed down for 2,000 years of church history - that God exists, God reveals, and God saves, meaning that the curriculum is a course to be run that will lead us from wonder to worship. Now, it is clear from your comment that we have a different view of Roman Catholics as I count them as my brothers and sisters in the Lord. Nevertheless, I am happy to say TCT is being used by hundreds of Christian families across nicene traditions who would all would affirm its orthodoxy. That said, if you are happy with AO, that is wonderful and I wish you nothing but the best! If you ever have any questions, feel free to reach out.
The previous comment makes me sad, and I encounter this denominational hostility in real life all the time. I recently re-read the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and I now when I come across this mindset or remarks like this, I just quote Tolkein in my mind! Frodo is saying Farewell to Faramir - "Farewell!" said Frodo, bowing low. 'Think what you will, I am a friend of all enemies of the One Enemy.'
I am a Protestant, I use the Good and the Beautiful curriculum, and I am going to use The Children's Tradition, too.
Practicioners of false gospels are not members of "other denominations" of Christianity. Do you consider LDS or JW to be other denominations? It's not an issue of "hostility," it's a factual representation of how the Bible presents this issue. Paul says that anyone preaching another gospel (in the specific context of what he's talking about, a works-based "gospel") is "accursed." That applies as fully to Rome as it does to any other cult.
There may be people who are brothers and sisters in Christ who are a part of the RCC, but that is *in spite* of Rome's dogmas, not as a result of them. Anyone who is saved by faith alone in Christ is out of step with Rome's theology and is "anathema" (the same term Paul uses in Galatians as mentioned above) by Rome's own dogmatic proclamations:
Council of Trent - Session VI
Canon 9:
"If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification, and that it is in no way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema."
Canon 12:
"If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified, let him be anathema."
Hello, William. While I respect your deeply held theological convictions, this Substack space is not the ideal place for dialogues around areas of disagreement to take place. TCT is a curriculum suited for families across all three Nicene traditions- Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant. Over the principle theological points of TCT Christians have universally agreed for 2,000 years- God exists, God reveals, God saves, and the curriculum is a course to be run that will lead us from wonder to worship. As such, with a diverse range of Christians welcomed in this space, I would ask that we reserve the debates for another sphere. Thank you!
You can make the best choice for your family based on your religious beliefs. There is no need to be upset because there are countless curriculum options available to all families! We are devout Traditional Catholics, so we have chosen the CMEC. I converted from Protestantism and for that reason would never use AO with my children. But I’m not outraged with AO for being anti-Catholic 🤷♀️ A friend of mine asked me to look into this curriculum since she’s new to homeschooling. We are so blessed of live in an era where we have the ability to research and discern what educational materials to use for our family. :)
As a former Roman Catholic myself, it’s a widespread misconception that you are ever taught saving knowledge in Jesus. So I don’t know how you would consider them brothers and sisters in the Lord. It’s a works based religion absent of the gospel
Interesting viewpoint. It seems that you were poorly catechized as a child. You have many misconceptions. Thankful Amanda includes knowledge of Church History.
Hello, William. While I respect your deeply held theological convictions, this Substack space is not the ideal place for dialogues around areas of disagreement to take place. TCT is a curriculum suited for families across all three Nicene traditions- Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant. Over the principle theological points of TCT Christians have universally agreed for 2,000 years- God exists, God reveals, God saves, and the curriculum is a course to be run that will lead us from wonder to worship. As such, with a diverse range of Christians welcomed in this space, I would ask that we reserve the debates for another sphere. Thank you!
This is an absolutely valid point. I'm amazed at the number of "Christians" who see nothing of buying (or using for free) a curriculum that is in no way Biblical. They will get offended when called out, which of course is a defensive attitude to justify their use of it, but they probably haven't even researched Mormonism/the LDS church to even understand what they're buying into-literally! They're supporting the LDS church and don't even realize/care. Ironic the lack of research or forethought.
The Catholic Church is not Protestant and there are many differences in theology, so this is something I'm glad to have found out before purchasing this curriculum. I wouldn't send my kids to an LDS or Catholic school, so why would I choose a curriculum of those natures?
If you are interested, I would be happy to send you the recordings of the TCT conference I did last week free of charge so that you can hear the first talk in particular "A Theology of Education". To equate TCT with an LDS curriculum, or to suggest that because it is based upon the work of Catholics that there is not plenty of wisdom for Protestants to gain from it, is an unfortunate position to take. In the classical tradition we read pagans, and we can read the works of Nicene Christians who we have meaningful theological differences from. Nearly every church father cited in this curriculum was pre-schism (between East and West), and was definitely pre-Reformation. The "nature" of TCT is Christian theology that has stood the test of time, and I would urge caution to anyone coming on this Substack to suggest that that means it is theologically deficient in some way.
That would be fine. I'm open to listening. I never equated TCT with LDS-simply stating I wouldn't use something I don't believe when there are options available that do. I like to know where my money is going and if it's to a religion (insert another specific ideology) that I don't support and will help promote that religion/ideology, I'm not likely to financially support it. It's a personal conviction. I wouldn't expect a traditional Catholic to use a Protestant Curriculum with their children, or a Muslim parent to use a Catholic one, etc... I'm very much into researching religions and learning about them but that doesn't mean I should use a curriculum that leans toward it just because my children might glean something from it. Will I teach my kids about other cultures and religions? Of course!
I can, of course, completely appreciate that you want to use options in line with your beliefs. I have commented this in another thread, but I want to reshare it here because it gets to the heart of what I want to clarify: I regularly receive messages from parents who share your concern about bias (both Catholic parents worried about anti-Catholic teaching and Protestants worried about anti-Protestant teaching). What has delighted me is to be able to share a curriculum that bypasses that concern by returning exclusively to books that have stood the test of time in our collective Western culture. Realism is at the heart of these books, giving us shared ground to stand upon as we come together to participate in the Great Conversation as it continues in our own time. While each family’s faith will inform it’s atmosphere and spiritual practices, and I provide some basic recommendations when they may delineate between traditions, the overwhelming part of this curriculum is for any family in a Nicene Christian tradition. Senior’s wisdom, insight, and humility as he received the western intellectual tradition is an example to us all of how to read widely without compromising our convictions. In light of that, I don't expect any Nicene Christian to find something substantial that they don't agree with in TCT! Shoot me an email at amanda@thechildrenstradition.com and I will get that conference to you :)
I had listened to your interviews with Autumn and was drawn in to the philosophy. But, I was so curious about the differences since we’ve used AO for a few years now. Thank you for the explanation. Also, grateful for the comments/questions that I maybe hadn’t considered to ask. Looking forward to doing a little more research with your podcast episodes. Thank you!
So the difference that I noticed is TCT is not tied to a history cycle like AO is. For instance, in AO's Y8 some of the major people of Catholic, Protestant and secular thinking are given space to "converse" with one another through the book selection. Can you share a bit about the ratio of books in different centuries? How do you ensure that a time period is adequately covered?
We will follow a type of chronological history plan for Adolescence (Year 8 on up), but that is not our goal in the Nursery and School Years. In the Nursery and School Years, we are filling their imagination up with stories from history around the world (we start with America in the first three years, but broaden to world history in Year 4 and add in first hand accounts Year 5), and we are not overly concerned if they learn about more figures in one century over another. Rather, we want them to know and love the people and times they have "met" so far! I am firmly convinced that reading a history spine to Nursery and School Children may look good on paper to say you have covered a wide range of time periods, but is not the necessary foundation children need to sustain deep historical studies when they are developmentally ready later.
I have very little knowledge of AO in the upper years, but to your example about having Catholic, Protestant, and secular writer's converse, our focus is on Good and Great works of classic literature, so for the Nursery and School Years that means the Bible, moral tales, fables, etc. In Adolescence, our theology stream will be reading the writings of the early church fathers pre-schism, and then we will include some post-schism theological writings in the history stream as a part of our historical accounts to give context to historical events like the Reformation, Counter-Reformation, etc. I want TCT to put Adolescence in touch with the best that has been thought and said in Christian theology and history, with the writings of historical figures in their context, and that will continue to progress and deepen as we develop our path for older students!
This is interesting and helpful for understanding the differences. It sounds to me, when I read what you've written here, like TCT is based primarily on John Senior's work and is only slightly influenced by Charlotte Mason. If I'm wrong please correct me! But if not, it does beg the question: why call it a Charlotte Mason curriculum at all?
(I'm asking out of sincere interest, not with a desire to challenge or to provoke 😊)
I don’t think you’re being provocative at all, and I appreciate this thoughtful question! Strictly speaking, TCT is a classical curriculum. It pulls upon the Great Tradition as a whole, from Plato and Aristotle, to St. Augustine and St. Aquinas, up to and including Charlotte Mason. John Senior faithfully articulated a historic pedagogy in line with classical ideas about gymnastic and musical education, as well as nurturing a Christian Paidea. And of course he gave us the 1,000 Good Books list! So his work, and that of his student, James Taylor, absolutely were paramount in writing this curriculum. That said, their writings on the elementary years in particular are limited. Additionally, they never mention something like narration. And then when it comes to my perspective as a writer, my study of classical education has largely been shaped by Charlotte Mason. Up until studying Senior and learning about poetic knowledge I would have said she was my greatest classical education influence. What I found in learning about poetic knowledge was in no way a contradiction of Mason, but seemed like a more clearly articulated classical pedagogy that I believe she also largely embraced! For example, Karen Glass talks about “synthetic knowledge” in Consider This as a place where the Great Tradition and Mason are in unity. This is one way to talk about poetic knowledge. So in writing TCT, I synthesized Senior with Mason, much like you synthesized Mason with Orthodox Church fathers in your book! Her work is woven throughout the curriculum, not just as a subtle footnote, but as a primary source. So it seemed necessary that I mention her, with her philosophy playing so largely into TCT’s articulation and practice. Finally, on a practical level, by calling it a classical Charlotte Mason curriculum, I think that communicates something to the imagination of homeschool moms. When they hear Mason, they think narration and nature study at a minimum, two things that are central in TCT. So I believe it was helpful to mention that in order to give parents a general, imaginative picture of what TCT contains. I hope that makes sense! And most of all I hope Mason educators will know that I am not trying to divide away from her/them but rather would like to present living ideas from the classical tradition that might help us clarify what Mason really meant in the first place.
I would love an answer to the question about where to go after this with older children. The other question I have is, how does The Children’s Tradition deal with combining students. I have kids very close together and this is always a question I am trying to figure out.
I just answered the question about older students below under Tania's question! As to your other question, TCT is extremely friendly to combining students. The books form natural cycles along the lines of Forms, so Years 1-3 can be easily looped as well as Years 4-5 (which will be 4-6 in the Spring launch). If you had an incoming 4th grader who hadn't read any (or some) of the Good Books, they could even be looped in with the Form 1 students for at least some of the books. Because these are, indeed, Good Books, they will nourish the souls of every person in the family, no matter how old, and we can foster a culture of reading aloud and delighting in great stories together.
My husband is at grad school doing a degree in Classical Leadership and is currently reading John Senior so I am very interested. I already bought Alveary and the books for this year so I may make the jump over next year. Is this a program to buy each year? Or for each student?
This program covers 1st-5th and will cover as many students as you have in your family. This is not an annual program membership like the Alveary, but a one-time purchase (two-time, if you buy the beta and Spring edition, but it will be no extra cost since the Spring edition will be $200 and the beta purchasers will receive $100 off). My goal was to give parents a holistic vision of elementary education and then save theirs funds for all these delightful books!
What would you recommend for children too old for TCT? My oldest two are 11 and turning 13 in Sept. so it sounds like they are already too old? What would you recommend for them and my younger children as they age out of TCT? For reference, we've used AO and CMEC for six years.
I will write an article about this. The short answer is use TCT to inform your philosophy, make book selections from the Adolescent portion of Senior's 1,000 Good Books list, and add in a composition curriculum. Personally I am drawn to following the Progymnasmata (the Scholé Sisters have a class on this) or using Lost Tools of Writing by the Circe Institute. How much you use TCT for your older students will also depend on their previous exposure to the Good Books. I am working on a list to share of which books from Nursery and School Years are "must-reads" for those who are on-boarding to TCT in older grades. So their first year might begin with reading books like the Greek myths, Grimm's Fairy Tales, Pinocchio, etc. to build up their literary foundation. Because they are older, they would read them at a much faster pace than younger students, so they could easily "make up" lost ground. Not that I want anyone to think of it as lost ground though. In a sense, no one is "behind" in this curriculum, we just go into it wherever we are and pick up the next book. It is very freeing from that perspective!
One more question, sorry! I was just comparing the sample of TCT with Senior's list, and I'm noticing books in TCT that aren't included on the 1000 books list, such as Stories from the Faerie Queen. Are the booklists found online incomplete? I don't own any of Seniors hard copy books to compare the discrepancy.
You're totally good, ask away! I did make a few additions, especially to bulk out the myths/legends portion which Senior recommended in principle but didn't have a lot of on the list. You can always check the Appendix to verify if a book is from his list or not. If it is mine, I put an asterisk by it (but I also don't think I got to add every single of my own picks to the Appendix when I was crunched for time).
Thank you! I am complete agreement with your take on history for the younger years. My children had no sense of chronological time at that age, in fact using AO, as much as I loved the books, set a great dislike for history in my oldest, which makes me hesitant to start AO with my current 6 yo. I've glanced at Seniors book list, and my oldest two have already read most of the books for younger children (with the exception of Henty), and even some on the adolescent list found here https://onlinegreatbooks.com/john-senior-and-the-thousand-good-books/
So we'd be all set to continue on. I do wonder about the coverage for history and science in the upper years? What I can see of Seniors list is solely literature books. Would you add in a few living history/science spines? (Sorry if you plan to address this in an upcoming post- I need to decide on our upcoming year soon so I can begin planning!).
I would check out Norms and Nobility by David Hicks. He has a classical curriculum for 7th-12th that I plan to pull from for things like history myself. As for science, Senior recommended nature study up through high school. This would involve researching the flora and fauna your students are encountering and notebooking. Additionally, finding living books to support that inquiry would be helpful in that process!
Hi I know I’m a bit late to this but I just wanted to pop in and say that Writing and Rhetoric from Schole academy is worth looking at as a writing program. I have been homeschooled my whole life and am now a Junior. During this time we used eclectic curriculums that fit within the Charlotte Mason philosophy and found Writing and Rhetoric to be a really life-giving curriculum to use! It allowed me to learn through reading and understanding applicable texts and writing exercises were modeled after concepts within the readings. This way it felt very natural because they were real writings, not analyzed but internalized, which led to my writing essays I actually enjoyed creating and reading. I’ve tried other curriculums because of scheduling conflicts and though every child is different, they often felt like consuming the vitamin pills instead of receiving them through the feast. Hope you find the right method for your family and your homeschool journey!
Thank you for this article Amanda. I used Ambleside for several years, later changing it around a few times and finally ending up with CMEC last year. My eldest daughter did very well with Ambleside, but it did not especially suit my younger daughter. When I converted to Catholicism I found many of the books unsuitable and have even had that issue to a much lesser extent with the CMEC, though I am not against using Protestant material as long as it is not anti-Catholic. I know that John Senior, himself Catholic, also recommended some Protestant books.
I purchased Children's Tradition last week, but have not had a good read yet as I am waiting for a printed copy to arrive. So far I am quite excited at the refreshing nature of it (no subjects, no history cycles!), as well as the combination of John Senior's work which has been time tested and has indeed been very fruitful.
I have received a number of emails from parents who share your concern about bias (both Catholic parents worried about anti-Catholic teaching and Protestants worried about anti-Protestant teaching). What has delighted me is to be able to share a curriculum that bypasses that concern by returning exclusively to books that have stood the test of time in our collective Western culture. Realism is at the heart of these books, giving us shared ground to stand upon as we come together to participate in the Great Conversation as it continues in our own time. While each family’s faith will inform it’s atmosphere and spiritual practices, and I provide some basic recommendations when they may delineate between traditions, the overwhelming part of this curriculum is for any family in a Nicene Christian tradition. Senior’s wisdom, insight, and humility as he received the western intellectual tradition is an example to us all of how to read widely without compromising our convictions. Thank you so much for purchasing TCT! I would love to hear about your experience as the school year goes on.
Just as I would not feel comfortable teaching my children from the good and the beautiful written by a Mormon. I would feel the same knowing that the background of this Philosophy is Catholic. The CMEC also leans Catholic. Why are Protestants not upset about this. The reformation is not over! I think I’ll stick with AO which point my children to the gospel and not a false gospel of works.
Hi Kerry, I appreciate your concern to deliver faithful doctrine to your children, but I can assure you there is not a hint of a false gospel in The Children's Tradition or any of the sources I used in writing it. The philosophy is historic Christianity handed down for 2,000 years of church history - that God exists, God reveals, and God saves, meaning that the curriculum is a course to be run that will lead us from wonder to worship. Now, it is clear from your comment that we have a different view of Roman Catholics as I count them as my brothers and sisters in the Lord. Nevertheless, I am happy to say TCT is being used by hundreds of Christian families across nicene traditions who would all would affirm its orthodoxy. That said, if you are happy with AO, that is wonderful and I wish you nothing but the best! If you ever have any questions, feel free to reach out.
The previous comment makes me sad, and I encounter this denominational hostility in real life all the time. I recently re-read the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and I now when I come across this mindset or remarks like this, I just quote Tolkein in my mind! Frodo is saying Farewell to Faramir - "Farewell!" said Frodo, bowing low. 'Think what you will, I am a friend of all enemies of the One Enemy.'
I am a Protestant, I use the Good and the Beautiful curriculum, and I am going to use The Children's Tradition, too.
Practicioners of false gospels are not members of "other denominations" of Christianity. Do you consider LDS or JW to be other denominations? It's not an issue of "hostility," it's a factual representation of how the Bible presents this issue. Paul says that anyone preaching another gospel (in the specific context of what he's talking about, a works-based "gospel") is "accursed." That applies as fully to Rome as it does to any other cult.
There may be people who are brothers and sisters in Christ who are a part of the RCC, but that is *in spite* of Rome's dogmas, not as a result of them. Anyone who is saved by faith alone in Christ is out of step with Rome's theology and is "anathema" (the same term Paul uses in Galatians as mentioned above) by Rome's own dogmatic proclamations:
Council of Trent - Session VI
Canon 9:
"If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification, and that it is in no way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema."
Canon 12:
"If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified, let him be anathema."
Catholicism does not share your attitude on this.
Hello, William. While I respect your deeply held theological convictions, this Substack space is not the ideal place for dialogues around areas of disagreement to take place. TCT is a curriculum suited for families across all three Nicene traditions- Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant. Over the principle theological points of TCT Christians have universally agreed for 2,000 years- God exists, God reveals, God saves, and the curriculum is a course to be run that will lead us from wonder to worship. As such, with a diverse range of Christians welcomed in this space, I would ask that we reserve the debates for another sphere. Thank you!
Whenever I see graceful handling of theological disputes, I always like to thank the voice that offers a calm, measured response. So…. Thank you!
You can make the best choice for your family based on your religious beliefs. There is no need to be upset because there are countless curriculum options available to all families! We are devout Traditional Catholics, so we have chosen the CMEC. I converted from Protestantism and for that reason would never use AO with my children. But I’m not outraged with AO for being anti-Catholic 🤷♀️ A friend of mine asked me to look into this curriculum since she’s new to homeschooling. We are so blessed of live in an era where we have the ability to research and discern what educational materials to use for our family. :)
As a former Roman Catholic myself, it’s a widespread misconception that you are ever taught saving knowledge in Jesus. So I don’t know how you would consider them brothers and sisters in the Lord. It’s a works based religion absent of the gospel
Interesting viewpoint. It seems that you were poorly catechized as a child. You have many misconceptions. Thankful Amanda includes knowledge of Church History.
If you think that Rome tolerates the biblical doctrine of Sola Fide, you were the one who was poorly catechized. Kerry is 100% correct here.
Hello, William. While I respect your deeply held theological convictions, this Substack space is not the ideal place for dialogues around areas of disagreement to take place. TCT is a curriculum suited for families across all three Nicene traditions- Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant. Over the principle theological points of TCT Christians have universally agreed for 2,000 years- God exists, God reveals, God saves, and the curriculum is a course to be run that will lead us from wonder to worship. As such, with a diverse range of Christians welcomed in this space, I would ask that we reserve the debates for another sphere. Thank you!
This is an absolutely valid point. I'm amazed at the number of "Christians" who see nothing of buying (or using for free) a curriculum that is in no way Biblical. They will get offended when called out, which of course is a defensive attitude to justify their use of it, but they probably haven't even researched Mormonism/the LDS church to even understand what they're buying into-literally! They're supporting the LDS church and don't even realize/care. Ironic the lack of research or forethought.
The Catholic Church is not Protestant and there are many differences in theology, so this is something I'm glad to have found out before purchasing this curriculum. I wouldn't send my kids to an LDS or Catholic school, so why would I choose a curriculum of those natures?
If you are interested, I would be happy to send you the recordings of the TCT conference I did last week free of charge so that you can hear the first talk in particular "A Theology of Education". To equate TCT with an LDS curriculum, or to suggest that because it is based upon the work of Catholics that there is not plenty of wisdom for Protestants to gain from it, is an unfortunate position to take. In the classical tradition we read pagans, and we can read the works of Nicene Christians who we have meaningful theological differences from. Nearly every church father cited in this curriculum was pre-schism (between East and West), and was definitely pre-Reformation. The "nature" of TCT is Christian theology that has stood the test of time, and I would urge caution to anyone coming on this Substack to suggest that that means it is theologically deficient in some way.
That would be fine. I'm open to listening. I never equated TCT with LDS-simply stating I wouldn't use something I don't believe when there are options available that do. I like to know where my money is going and if it's to a religion (insert another specific ideology) that I don't support and will help promote that religion/ideology, I'm not likely to financially support it. It's a personal conviction. I wouldn't expect a traditional Catholic to use a Protestant Curriculum with their children, or a Muslim parent to use a Catholic one, etc... I'm very much into researching religions and learning about them but that doesn't mean I should use a curriculum that leans toward it just because my children might glean something from it. Will I teach my kids about other cultures and religions? Of course!
I can, of course, completely appreciate that you want to use options in line with your beliefs. I have commented this in another thread, but I want to reshare it here because it gets to the heart of what I want to clarify: I regularly receive messages from parents who share your concern about bias (both Catholic parents worried about anti-Catholic teaching and Protestants worried about anti-Protestant teaching). What has delighted me is to be able to share a curriculum that bypasses that concern by returning exclusively to books that have stood the test of time in our collective Western culture. Realism is at the heart of these books, giving us shared ground to stand upon as we come together to participate in the Great Conversation as it continues in our own time. While each family’s faith will inform it’s atmosphere and spiritual practices, and I provide some basic recommendations when they may delineate between traditions, the overwhelming part of this curriculum is for any family in a Nicene Christian tradition. Senior’s wisdom, insight, and humility as he received the western intellectual tradition is an example to us all of how to read widely without compromising our convictions. In light of that, I don't expect any Nicene Christian to find something substantial that they don't agree with in TCT! Shoot me an email at amanda@thechildrenstradition.com and I will get that conference to you :)
I had listened to your interviews with Autumn and was drawn in to the philosophy. But, I was so curious about the differences since we’ve used AO for a few years now. Thank you for the explanation. Also, grateful for the comments/questions that I maybe hadn’t considered to ask. Looking forward to doing a little more research with your podcast episodes. Thank you!
So the difference that I noticed is TCT is not tied to a history cycle like AO is. For instance, in AO's Y8 some of the major people of Catholic, Protestant and secular thinking are given space to "converse" with one another through the book selection. Can you share a bit about the ratio of books in different centuries? How do you ensure that a time period is adequately covered?
We will follow a type of chronological history plan for Adolescence (Year 8 on up), but that is not our goal in the Nursery and School Years. In the Nursery and School Years, we are filling their imagination up with stories from history around the world (we start with America in the first three years, but broaden to world history in Year 4 and add in first hand accounts Year 5), and we are not overly concerned if they learn about more figures in one century over another. Rather, we want them to know and love the people and times they have "met" so far! I am firmly convinced that reading a history spine to Nursery and School Children may look good on paper to say you have covered a wide range of time periods, but is not the necessary foundation children need to sustain deep historical studies when they are developmentally ready later.
I have very little knowledge of AO in the upper years, but to your example about having Catholic, Protestant, and secular writer's converse, our focus is on Good and Great works of classic literature, so for the Nursery and School Years that means the Bible, moral tales, fables, etc. In Adolescence, our theology stream will be reading the writings of the early church fathers pre-schism, and then we will include some post-schism theological writings in the history stream as a part of our historical accounts to give context to historical events like the Reformation, Counter-Reformation, etc. I want TCT to put Adolescence in touch with the best that has been thought and said in Christian theology and history, with the writings of historical figures in their context, and that will continue to progress and deepen as we develop our path for older students!
This is interesting and helpful for understanding the differences. It sounds to me, when I read what you've written here, like TCT is based primarily on John Senior's work and is only slightly influenced by Charlotte Mason. If I'm wrong please correct me! But if not, it does beg the question: why call it a Charlotte Mason curriculum at all?
(I'm asking out of sincere interest, not with a desire to challenge or to provoke 😊)
I don’t think you’re being provocative at all, and I appreciate this thoughtful question! Strictly speaking, TCT is a classical curriculum. It pulls upon the Great Tradition as a whole, from Plato and Aristotle, to St. Augustine and St. Aquinas, up to and including Charlotte Mason. John Senior faithfully articulated a historic pedagogy in line with classical ideas about gymnastic and musical education, as well as nurturing a Christian Paidea. And of course he gave us the 1,000 Good Books list! So his work, and that of his student, James Taylor, absolutely were paramount in writing this curriculum. That said, their writings on the elementary years in particular are limited. Additionally, they never mention something like narration. And then when it comes to my perspective as a writer, my study of classical education has largely been shaped by Charlotte Mason. Up until studying Senior and learning about poetic knowledge I would have said she was my greatest classical education influence. What I found in learning about poetic knowledge was in no way a contradiction of Mason, but seemed like a more clearly articulated classical pedagogy that I believe she also largely embraced! For example, Karen Glass talks about “synthetic knowledge” in Consider This as a place where the Great Tradition and Mason are in unity. This is one way to talk about poetic knowledge. So in writing TCT, I synthesized Senior with Mason, much like you synthesized Mason with Orthodox Church fathers in your book! Her work is woven throughout the curriculum, not just as a subtle footnote, but as a primary source. So it seemed necessary that I mention her, with her philosophy playing so largely into TCT’s articulation and practice. Finally, on a practical level, by calling it a classical Charlotte Mason curriculum, I think that communicates something to the imagination of homeschool moms. When they hear Mason, they think narration and nature study at a minimum, two things that are central in TCT. So I believe it was helpful to mention that in order to give parents a general, imaginative picture of what TCT contains. I hope that makes sense! And most of all I hope Mason educators will know that I am not trying to divide away from her/them but rather would like to present living ideas from the classical tradition that might help us clarify what Mason really meant in the first place.
Thank you for such a thorough response! Lots to chew on, which I always love :)
I would love an answer to the question about where to go after this with older children. The other question I have is, how does The Children’s Tradition deal with combining students. I have kids very close together and this is always a question I am trying to figure out.
I just answered the question about older students below under Tania's question! As to your other question, TCT is extremely friendly to combining students. The books form natural cycles along the lines of Forms, so Years 1-3 can be easily looped as well as Years 4-5 (which will be 4-6 in the Spring launch). If you had an incoming 4th grader who hadn't read any (or some) of the Good Books, they could even be looped in with the Form 1 students for at least some of the books. Because these are, indeed, Good Books, they will nourish the souls of every person in the family, no matter how old, and we can foster a culture of reading aloud and delighting in great stories together.
My husband is at grad school doing a degree in Classical Leadership and is currently reading John Senior so I am very interested. I already bought Alveary and the books for this year so I may make the jump over next year. Is this a program to buy each year? Or for each student?
This program covers 1st-5th and will cover as many students as you have in your family. This is not an annual program membership like the Alveary, but a one-time purchase (two-time, if you buy the beta and Spring edition, but it will be no extra cost since the Spring edition will be $200 and the beta purchasers will receive $100 off). My goal was to give parents a holistic vision of elementary education and then save theirs funds for all these delightful books!
I love this aspect of it as well! Thank you Amanda! I look forward to using this in the future!
I love that! Thank you Amanda!
What would you recommend for children too old for TCT? My oldest two are 11 and turning 13 in Sept. so it sounds like they are already too old? What would you recommend for them and my younger children as they age out of TCT? For reference, we've used AO and CMEC for six years.
I will write an article about this. The short answer is use TCT to inform your philosophy, make book selections from the Adolescent portion of Senior's 1,000 Good Books list, and add in a composition curriculum. Personally I am drawn to following the Progymnasmata (the Scholé Sisters have a class on this) or using Lost Tools of Writing by the Circe Institute. How much you use TCT for your older students will also depend on their previous exposure to the Good Books. I am working on a list to share of which books from Nursery and School Years are "must-reads" for those who are on-boarding to TCT in older grades. So their first year might begin with reading books like the Greek myths, Grimm's Fairy Tales, Pinocchio, etc. to build up their literary foundation. Because they are older, they would read them at a much faster pace than younger students, so they could easily "make up" lost ground. Not that I want anyone to think of it as lost ground though. In a sense, no one is "behind" in this curriculum, we just go into it wherever we are and pick up the next book. It is very freeing from that perspective!
One more question, sorry! I was just comparing the sample of TCT with Senior's list, and I'm noticing books in TCT that aren't included on the 1000 books list, such as Stories from the Faerie Queen. Are the booklists found online incomplete? I don't own any of Seniors hard copy books to compare the discrepancy.
You're totally good, ask away! I did make a few additions, especially to bulk out the myths/legends portion which Senior recommended in principle but didn't have a lot of on the list. You can always check the Appendix to verify if a book is from his list or not. If it is mine, I put an asterisk by it (but I also don't think I got to add every single of my own picks to the Appendix when I was crunched for time).
Ok, sounds good. We love myths and legends too!
Thank you! I am complete agreement with your take on history for the younger years. My children had no sense of chronological time at that age, in fact using AO, as much as I loved the books, set a great dislike for history in my oldest, which makes me hesitant to start AO with my current 6 yo. I've glanced at Seniors book list, and my oldest two have already read most of the books for younger children (with the exception of Henty), and even some on the adolescent list found here https://onlinegreatbooks.com/john-senior-and-the-thousand-good-books/
So we'd be all set to continue on. I do wonder about the coverage for history and science in the upper years? What I can see of Seniors list is solely literature books. Would you add in a few living history/science spines? (Sorry if you plan to address this in an upcoming post- I need to decide on our upcoming year soon so I can begin planning!).
I would check out Norms and Nobility by David Hicks. He has a classical curriculum for 7th-12th that I plan to pull from for things like history myself. As for science, Senior recommended nature study up through high school. This would involve researching the flora and fauna your students are encountering and notebooking. Additionally, finding living books to support that inquiry would be helpful in that process!
Hi I know I’m a bit late to this but I just wanted to pop in and say that Writing and Rhetoric from Schole academy is worth looking at as a writing program. I have been homeschooled my whole life and am now a Junior. During this time we used eclectic curriculums that fit within the Charlotte Mason philosophy and found Writing and Rhetoric to be a really life-giving curriculum to use! It allowed me to learn through reading and understanding applicable texts and writing exercises were modeled after concepts within the readings. This way it felt very natural because they were real writings, not analyzed but internalized, which led to my writing essays I actually enjoyed creating and reading. I’ve tried other curriculums because of scheduling conflicts and though every child is different, they often felt like consuming the vitamin pills instead of receiving them through the feast. Hope you find the right method for your family and your homeschool journey!
Thank you for this article Amanda. I used Ambleside for several years, later changing it around a few times and finally ending up with CMEC last year. My eldest daughter did very well with Ambleside, but it did not especially suit my younger daughter. When I converted to Catholicism I found many of the books unsuitable and have even had that issue to a much lesser extent with the CMEC, though I am not against using Protestant material as long as it is not anti-Catholic. I know that John Senior, himself Catholic, also recommended some Protestant books.
I purchased Children's Tradition last week, but have not had a good read yet as I am waiting for a printed copy to arrive. So far I am quite excited at the refreshing nature of it (no subjects, no history cycles!), as well as the combination of John Senior's work which has been time tested and has indeed been very fruitful.
I have received a number of emails from parents who share your concern about bias (both Catholic parents worried about anti-Catholic teaching and Protestants worried about anti-Protestant teaching). What has delighted me is to be able to share a curriculum that bypasses that concern by returning exclusively to books that have stood the test of time in our collective Western culture. Realism is at the heart of these books, giving us shared ground to stand upon as we come together to participate in the Great Conversation as it continues in our own time. While each family’s faith will inform it’s atmosphere and spiritual practices, and I provide some basic recommendations when they may delineate between traditions, the overwhelming part of this curriculum is for any family in a Nicene Christian tradition. Senior’s wisdom, insight, and humility as he received the western intellectual tradition is an example to us all of how to read widely without compromising our convictions. Thank you so much for purchasing TCT! I would love to hear about your experience as the school year goes on.